Campassionate Carnivore?

[Cara Speckhals]

I've been a vegetarian with fish leanings for quite a while now. When I tried it in college I did such a hack job of it that I looked like there should've been a telethon in my honor. For most of my life I have struggled with the idea of eating an animal. What makes eating a cow any less horrifying than eating a dog? Does a cow have less of a right to live than your house cat?

Honestly, I am rarely one to preach about the morals and ethics of vegetarianism, but it was a chance encounter with David Life of Jivamukti that started me on my most recent journey of meatlessness. He and his wife, Sharon, are ardent proponents of a vegan lifestyle, so much so, that they are called quacks by other "extremist" yogins. They truly believe in ahimsa ,the limb of yoga that stresses non-harming. When asked about the health risks of being vegan, Life said in response, "It's not about what's good for you, but what's good." That did it for me. It only took a moment for me to realize that I couldn't hide behind my fear that I couldn't feed myself and made the decision to cut the meat out of my diet. In Taiwan, where Buddhist buffets abound, this is the easiest decision to make. I maintained my weight and my health with no trouble. I also had a much more rigid sense of a "vegetarian identity."

Strangely, I have met with more opposition to my lifestyle in sunny, tree hugging LA than anywhere else I've been. People with whom I am close have been quick to point out to me that even His Holiness the Dali Lama eats meat, so my position that it's a spiritual decision must be shot then, eh? Um, no. When I said that I would raise my children as vegetarians a co-worker lit into me about the risks I'd be imposing on them. It was bizarre.

My reasons for making this choice are simple: we can't all afford to drive a Prius, nor can we retro-fit our homes for solar panels or walk to work everyday (this is LA!). The one way I have found to decrease my eco-foot print and to practice compassion for the other beings of this Earth is to stop eating and wearing them. There's a monkey wrench, however, and that's why I'm writing this...

1.) I would be more marketable as a chef if I did more than just pastry (ie racks o' baby sheep).
2.) The man I love happens to love meat. I cooked chicken for the first time in almost two years Friday night and it was not fun for me, but I did it because I love him.
3.) Being vegetarian and healthy in LA is not nearly as simple as it was in Taiwan.

Here's my question: Are you a vegetarian? If so, why? If you aren't, then why not? How do you structure it into your practice? I'm really beginning to have some internal conflict about this, so any and all insights are welcome.

Thanks and Namaste!

[Phil Vinson (Soldier of Vague Misanthropy)]

Hi, Cara,

I know you from listening to Ken's Then and Now podcasts, though you don't know me.

I am not a vegetarian. I've tried, but it just didn't work. I found that without animal protein, my blood sugar drops precipitously, and I have some very unpleasant symptoms. I've been diagnosed as a borderline diabetic, so I watch my diet carefully. I know that theoretically one can find sufficient protein in non-animal products. But for whatever reason it doesn't work that way for me. I eat meat in fairly small quantities, but haven't been successful in cutting it out completely.

I admire anyone who can maintain a vegetarian or vegan diet, but I can't.

[Sister Logchain of the Short Path]

I'm not a vegetarian, and I don't have scruples about eating meat, although I don't eat much of it. My wife needs to eat meat. She is African and has always eaten a diet which is made up mainly of vegetables including maize-porridge, with a little meat when available. Like most Africans she is very economical in her 'use' of meat and nothing goes to waste: she eats parts of the animal that would seem revolting to most fastidious Europeans, such as lungs, intestines, chicken's feet, chicken's gizzards. She (and I) have also eaten insects, like flying ants or termites (what are called locusts, I think, in the Bible). In this respect I think her carnivorous attitude is ethical and straightforward, and I am inclined towards it through association with her over many years together, and shared life in Africa as part of an extended African family. Like you, Cara, I have found that some life-styles are easier to adopt when immersed in alternative cultures. I think that intellectualising our appetites, and our metabolic patterns and needs, is contrived. If your heart moves you to eat less meat, follow it. Don't even bother thinking about it otherwise. Phil's experience is salutary and reliable and in my opinion he has absolutely no reason to chide himself, nor do I think people who abstain from meat are to be admired. If that's what they want to do, and can do it, what's to admire?

Personally, I think there are more important things to be scrupulous about than meat-eating, like being non-oppressive, equitable and decent to fellow human beings. My wife maintains that we in the West/developed world are impossible ambivalent about cruelty to animals. On the one hand we are neglectful of the needs of starving human beings in most of the world, and consume more than our deserved share of the world's resources; on the other we spend billions on feeding companion animals with food that would feed families of undernourished people in poor countries, and give huge amounts to animal charities. A topsy-turvy world.

I take the same attitude to alcohol. Alcohol doesn't agree with me and if I take it I get gloomy, easily tired and tend to put on weight. At the same time there are occasions when I enjoy a glass of wine with my wife, and it pleases her that I join her in doing this. I also occasionally join my son in a glass of beer for the same reasons. Not to do so on the basis of some self-imposed prescription seems to me to be perverse, even puritanical and hair-shirt. Most of the Buddhist friends I know take a similar attitude, although in Buddhist company few would be so bold as to admit it. The hypocrisy is worse, in my view, that the so-called infringement of the precepts, but that's my heresy.

It can't be fun to cook a chicken if you look at the bird as the corpse of a former sentient being. But such thinking may itself be the problem, and we can change our thinking. You may experience some dissonance at first but not if you work at it. I think we all know this to be the case, but our scruples and habitual ways of thinking get in the way of reality. I have no qualms about being eaten myself. My dead mentor wanted his body to be given to a dogs' home to feed the beasts, so as not to waste it. No-one had the bottle to see to it that his wishes were followed.

I don't know whether my comments qualify as insights, but they are a heartfelt and sincere expression of a point of view.

[Phil Vinson (Soldier of Vague Misanthropy)]

Sister L:

Perhaps it would have been better putting it this way: "I respect anyone who can maintain a vegetarian or vegan diet. . . ," etc. Your point about admiration is well taken.

[Chou Dog of Dis-illusioned Allegory]

'When asked about the health risks of being vegan, Life said in response, "It's not about what's good for you, but what's good."' Define 'good'. Consider the following questions:

I have been told that in the Vinaya, the code of behaviour for monastics, the Buddha specifically forbids monastics from doing any kind of agricultural work due to the huge number of sentient beings that are killed in the process of ploughing, weeding, harvesting, etc.
So where does this leave vegetarians and vegans? It's not okay to kill cows and sheep but it's okay to kill untold numbers of insects and small mammals?

In the developing world, and even in the developed world, labourers are subjected to unbelievably degraded living conditions, inadequate wages and horrific working conditions to provide all those lovely fresh veggies you buy in the supermarket.
So where does this leave vegetarians and vegans? It's not okay eat meat but it's okay to exploit people?

Soy--the usual source of protein for vegetarians and vegans--is one of the most genetically engineered plants on the planet. Hardly pure. Many other plants are routinely genetically modified. How do you feel about (for example) Monsanto and its business practices?

In Canada last year several people were poisoned by vegetables from California, where the level of insecticide use is startling.
So what's so wonderful about nice fresh veggies if they're obtained by poisoning the earth?

In northern Canada the growing season is extremely short and the climate is hostile. Native Canadians who live in the North eat a diet high in animal protein. If they didn't, they wouldn't eat at all.
What is the vegetarian/veggie view on people in this situation? One Buddhist I asked said that obviously these Northerners had led bad lives and accumulated bad karma which led to them being reborn in a place where they had to eat animals (thereby accumulating even more bad karma). Do you agree?

If you don't like cooking meat, why do it? You said you cooked chicken for him because you love him; if he wants chicken, why can't he cook it for himself because he loves you?

These questions are offered sincerely. I think they're worth considering, especially when someone tries to establish one way of life as 'good' (which means, of necessity, that any other way of life is 'bad'.) I've been involved in this debate many, many times. It's something that I continuously review. At the moment my own personal position is to eat locally produced food (flesh, fowl, fish, vegetables and fruit) and in moderation. I make no claim that this is the 'right' way to eat; it's only the way I eat. My ideas may change. Like I said, I continuously review it. When I buy any kind of meat it is not packaged but recognisably part of a formerly living being, so I can't get away from that particular reality. Over time my husband and I have reduced our meat intake considerably but we do still have some (FYI, 'moderate' intake = e.g. one sausage each, or half a chicken breast between the two of us, as part of a meal; emphasis on vegetables, salads and fruits), although we have maybe three meals a week without any animal protein at all. Are we kidding ourselves that we're doing okay here?

[Bill Gardner]

Cara & Chou Dog,
Let's not think about our food choices as an attempt to make ourselves pure, or to follow the one good way. For what it is worth, my current compromise is I do not eat animal flesh. But when mice got into our house a couple of years ago, I trapped them. And when running this afternoon near a river, I killed some biting flies. No justification for that -- just couldn't help it -- I'll avoid their homes next time. I support the use of animals in medical research, when they are treated as humanely as possible, when the research is important, and when their isn't an alternative. So I am not a 'pure' vegetarian or a pure anything else. I hope I am doing the least harm I can manage right now; but would welcome suggestions about how to improve.

Chou Dog raises great questions, most of which we discussed in our sangha, after the Karmapa banned serving of meat in his monasteries. "It's not okay to kill cows and sheep but it's okay to kill untold numbers of insects and small mammals?" Both are harmful to sentient beings. For me, the question is what is the lesser harm. Among other things, the production of beef usually requires a lot of corn, killing more insects & rodents than you would if you ate the corn directly. So (my opinion), range fed beef is less harmful than lot fed beef, eating vegetables is less harmful than eating beef, etc. Looking at Chou Dog's choices, it seems like she too is trying to do the best she can. Perfection is an illusion, we should just try to do the best that we can with the choices that are available to us.

[Valerie Brewster]

Hi Cara:

I'm what I call a "lapsed vegetarian." On my own, I am almost completely vegetarian. Occasionally I eat fish. When I am out in the world, I eat what is presented to me, and try and make what are good choices with what I'm presented. For instance, when my mom cooks one of her amazing dinners, I'm not going to turn down a bit of the roast and miss how happy she'll look when I tell her how delicious it is. Likewise, I've travelled in places where I would have starved (or at least become even more hungry) if I insisted on being a strict vegetarian. I went for many years as a pure vegetarian and lived with a pure vegetarian who tolerated my occasional need for a piece of fish. Due to some other health issues, I've become almost vegan for long stretches over the last 8 years. Now I'm in love with a serious carnivoire and I've learned to cook chicken and beef ragout. He's eating more vegetables, too, and he's learned some food politics from me and goes to the Farmers Market on his own now. I still don't eat (that much) meat.

I think it might be worthwhile to look at the purity issue and see what you find. After about 7 years of dedicated backyard vegetable production, I have to say that growing vegetables involves a lot of death. I have always been an organic gardener and my morning trip to survey the garden almost always resulted in the "first death of the day" be it a snail I stepped on, or a slug that I tossed from its nest in the lettuce over the fence. Tilling the soil disturbs and maims earthworms, beetles, and snakes. Tiny spiders, tiny slugs, and sleeping moths find their way into the house when the crop is brought indoors where they die whirling down the sink, trampled underfoot, refrigerated to death, or maimed as I try to lift them from the kitchen and back into the garden. And, since I have a relationship with the plants I've raised, I do feel it a bit when I kill them so I can eat them. As an old zen-loser (his term) boyfriend of mine used to declare like some punk rallying cry, "Eat death to live."

One of my favorite practices around food is to take a minute before you eat to consider the causes and conditions that created what is on your plate. From the labor of the cook, the grocer, the trucker, the farmer, millenia of seed savers, land stewards, the elements of nature . . . Eating connects us with everything, including death.

And isn't it strange how other people feel the need to comment on what they see on someone else's plate? Go out to dinner with a group and if you order a salad instead of the steak everyone else orders, you're in for all sorts of conversational sports. It makes others uncomfortable when someone in the group doesn't conform and brings up all kinds of reactivity. I think in America, what's on the plate is about as controversial as politics and religion. If you are a vegan or a vegetarian, chances are you are combining politics and religion and food. Tasty!

As a final aside, I worked on a vegetarian nutrition newsletter for several years and learned quite a bit in the process. It isn't a problem eating well as a vegetarian or a vegan. But. It is nearly impossible to get enough calcium, and women might consider supplements or choosing enriched soymilk or tofu. For a vegan, vitamin B12 is also an issue. I'd ignored it, and had it brought home when a neurologist ordered a blood test and was appalled by my B12 levels. I wasn't as alarmed as she was when I looked it up and saw that my levels were consistent with those found in vegans. However, at that point I did choose to supplement due to my own health issues.

Best of luck finding your place in the economic machine. Up here in the Northwest there seems plenty of demand for local, ethical cuisine. Perhaps a change of city?

Valerie

[Laura Hirt]

Hi Cara,

I feel like I know you, too from the Then and Now class. Pretty soon, we'll need a tabloid magazine for keeping up with our podcast celebrities. Oh wait, we have Facebook. By the way, when are you and your boyfriend getting married? Do you shop at the grocery store like regular people do? Do you pump your own gas? Do you really ride a Vespa just like Gwyneth Paltrow and that chef in Ratatouille? The stars are all going green. Maybe I should, too? Just kidding, but the fame phenomenon feels similar, nonetheless.

Like you, I detest cooking meat. Since my husband likes it and I feel that my kids need the protein, I push the dirty work off on him, generally outside on the grill. Not the best situation, but it gets me through dinner.

Doesn't LA have any high-end vegetarian restaurants? I remember hearing about Demi Moore eating at a place that serves only raw vegetables. If not, why not open a vegetarian restaurant yourself? Perhaps there is a need in LA, in which case you would have a niche, the ultimate boon for any entrepreneur. You may scoff, but that's how great things get started.

[Tracy Ormond]

I agree , we do need a tabloid magazine for keeping up with our podcast celebrities. And does cara live like the rest of us?

She is a breath of fresh air!!!!!!!!!!

[Rebecca Swanson]

I think there is some answer to your questions in the admonition that some Buddhist sects demand that monks, when they beg for food, must eat meat when it is given to them.

What if one accepts being vegetarian as a way to "do no harm" (even though we must harm to live) and also accepts the idea of having no point of view about it, or rather, understanding the entire field is open to us as humans, from being vegan to carnivore.

I have been a vegetarian (and have been vegan at times) since about 1972, with brief flurries of re-evaluating what I was doing and why.

Hybrid Vehicle of Intensity

[Sister Logchain of the Short Path]

I wonder what the intention might be in requiring monks to eat meat that was given them, even if they had no appetite for it, or found it repulsive.

This seems less an admonition, more an act of superordinate spitefulness. I can understand that a wise teacher might want to challenge an individual pupil's obstinacy, but a 'blanket' requirement applied to all circumstances just seems pointless and malign. If there is a point to such a rule of training, what is it?

A corollary. I don't imagine Gotama had any understanding of microscopic life like bacteria or protozoa. Are such life-forms sentient? Is it wrong that our immune systems produde antibodies to destroy organisms that might otherwise colonise us, overwhelm us, and conduce to our death? Presumably we might, in the interests of ahimsa, take steps to lower our immune responses to infection (e.g. by not eating nutrients that strengthen our immunity). That way trillions of organisms would be free to flourish. Where will it all end? Does it matter?

Sr Logchain

[Rebecca Swanson]

Perhaps this has to do with accepting what is given freely to you rather than being a vegetarian or a carnivore. (The following is a loose quote from Robert Thurman, and is maybe not a universal edict.) The monks are also not to say "Thank you" for what they receive and that, in this situation, the giver does not expect to be thanked. One is is need and begs; one has more than she needs and gives.

Maybe it's like the story of the two monks who come to a stream and meet a woman who needs carrying. Maybe once you accept the pledge of vegetarianism, you can eat a piece of meat (or carry a woman,) all the time still being a vegetarian (or a monk, as the case may be.) Fifteen or so years ago I ate chicken that was prepared for me by a dear friend, a friend who understood vegetarianism to be "not beef but, of course, chicken and fish." When I ate the chicken salad I watched the love I saw in her face, that she had prepared food for me that I was enjoying. I knew a chicken had died; I didn't do this lightly.

Being vegetarian is our way to state our intent to do something we cannot achieve, doing no harm. The lines we draw are arbitrary: vegetarian, vegan, cheese/no cheese, milk for cheese or for the baby calf?, eggs/no eggs, fertile or not? We try so hard, and finally we hear our teacher's voice. "Don't make war with yourself. You are perfect in your imperfection."

In regard to "A corollary," I think he understood everything.

Hybrid Vehicle of Intensity

[Sister Logchain of the Short Path]

Thanks for your comments Hybrid Vehicle of Intensity. Your interpretation is full of generous accommodation to the intentions of the monks as recipients and to the donors' intentions for them. And to those of us who may be struggling with what to do about what we eat. Your position contrasts with the Buddhist admonition mentioned which seems to acknowledge neither in its prescriptiveness.

As I have understood no-strings giving and done my best to practise it, there is no attachment to what is given. If I give someone food I have no attachment to whether it is eaten or otherwise disposed of - the recipient is absolutely free to do with it what they decide. If I give someone a Buddhist book, I always add "it is for you to do with it as you decide, keep it or dispose of it as you see fit".

As to the corollary, is it possible that Gotama understood everything while not knowing about the existence of micro-organisms, atoms or the circulation of the blood? This isn't a mischievous question, just an interested one. Gotama was, after all, a man of his time as well as an enlightened being, or am I wrong about this?